TW sucked me in (and spit me out)... and I ficced Derek/Stiles

[verushka70]

So like a month and a half ago I started binge-watching Teen Wolf, which I had never seen before because I haven't had cable TV in forever. It was in my Amazon Prime video queue for like over a year; I merely waited because my first choice supernatural creature is vampires, not werewolves.

First few episodes hooked me, especially when the Derek/Stiles interaction began. What chemistry! Sadly, this may be the fastest I got into and then got disillusioned with a show ever (yay, streaming video and binge-watching? \o?). I finished S4 now and I'm bummed at what happened to the show... same ol' formulaic supernatural stuff, just like happened on Vampire Diaires. Haven't seen S5 yet, but post-S4 I'm only in it for Stiles, really. Actually, I'm in it for Stiles' hands because I haven't seen hands and forearms this sexy since CKR in dS/C6D and Matthew McConaughey in, like, anything he's ever done but especially True Detective S1.

So I went on AO3 to find Derek/Stiles fic and there are over 37,000 Derek/Stiles fics. Overwhelmed, I looked for and found an LJ with Sterek recs. It so happened the very first of their Derek/Stiles recs that I read was literally one of the best slash fics I've ever read -- not merely one of the best (if not the best for me based purely on how it pushes my buttons) Derek/Stiles I've read so far.

I don't usually rec stuff but in a way I must because this fic ruined me for the vast majority of Derek/Stiles out there -- and I mean that in a good way. It's well written; it's a lovely portrait of young love and passion; and it's also a sweet "figuring out each others' kink" story. There's pre-slash... and then there is pre-BDSM, and I say it's pre-BDSM. I am doomed to search forever for another fic like it becaues it's got a strange purity at it's heart -- pure young Stiles' limitless passion for Derek and what Derek does to him and how much more Stiles can do/give/take in a submissive way (without naming it such, because who calls it that when you don't know what you're doing and you're young?), plus a responsible, loving sexy dom!Derek (without calling it such because they're figuring these roles out organically with each other). It's Collared by sephirothflame and it's fucking awesome.

Despite the turns canonical TW take in S4 (apparently there's no Hoechlin in S5, wtf?), there's a happy place in my brain where slashy canonical moments in slashy shows live forever and create their own world (an AU HBO explicit slash world). It's not just my brain, of course; it's a collective happy place, which is what is so awesome about fandom in general. \o/

So of course I had to contribute to that world... I ficced Derek/Stiles. *facepalm* Like I need a new fandom of manboys so young they could literally be my kids. I suddenly find myself much more sympathetic to "old men" (like, what is that anyway? I'm 47, so am I an old woman now? I guess I am to teens and 20somethings...) who like young women. Which I used to completely think was kind of gross and creepy. Now I find myself to be the creep because I can't help <3-ing and lusting after TW's young men who are literally less than 1/2 my age (not to mention the new residents and medical students who arrived at my job in July, also young enough to be my kids... and hella cute and fuckable and omg, am I a female version of a creep? or do I just need to get laid with a man my own age since it's been almost 2 yrs since my ex and I broke up and I need to get back out there (an idea I loathe because the last time I was single was in 2003)?

Yes, I guess... and... yes.*headdesk* Because if I weren't a size 20/22 47 year old women lacking the bizarro self-confidence of men in mid-life crises, I would totally hit on the med students and residents who aren't married because why the fuck shouldn't I... and if it turned into something more that would be ridiculous, right? but no more ridiculous than a 47 year old man dating a 28 year old woman.

I don't feel like a cougar, but I guess I could be? IDEK.

Anyway the fic is Derek/Stiles, it's a little angsty, it's Stiles' POV, it's a first time (first everything), it's a zero-to-120mph in two seconds (well, one night) hella explicit story. It's unbeta-ed, but I think it's okay... I didn't write it and post it in a frenzy, I actually sat on it for a couple weeks and let it marinate and re-checked it multiple times...

It's not exactly PWP but I guess it's pretty close. I dunno. People who commented are saying pretty nice things about it. I really did try to find a TW beta but the beta stickies comments and PMs I sent on TW Derek/Stiles fic LJ sites went unanswered... and since I'm mostly in dSC6D fandoms and I don't get online all that often anymore and my tendinitis has been really bothering me off and on this summer, I didn't know who else to ask for beta-ing.

Of course I feel guilty because I have a dS WIP that I've had for literally a year, and I'm stuck/writer's blocked on it, and should be working on that... and here I fic in a totally new fandom instead. Sigh!

FWIW my fic is The Devil You Know
...and here's a little excerpt/summary:

"So," Derek says like it's utterly obvious. (It's not, it's totally not). It's hard to know how to take someone you can't really read. Derek's tongue licks between Stiles' lips like all of this was never in question. (Was it? No, not really, because: Derek).

Now if only TPTB would allow the shaved/waxed hairless TW men and boys to either grow or show their chest hair. I get that the young guys don't have much body hair to shave/wax. I watched it happen with my guy friends that I knew in high school (and still know) -- they'll start getting body and chest hair in their mid- and late 20s like my guy friends did. But, c'mon... show us Stiles' dad or Allison's dad without a shirt. Or Dr. Deaton, for that matter. Fortunately (?) I'm into the older dudes on TW as much as the younger ones... it's only being into the younger ones that worries me about my cougar-ish tendencies, lol!

Comments

[glitteryv]

NGL, even though it's not my scene, I think it's sweet that you got into TW Fandom. #IDEK

Now if only TPTB would allow the shaved/waxed hairless TW men and boys to either grow or show their chest hair.

Hmm, I think the whole hairless thing is a style that most guys (in the media) rarely (if ever) step away from. Take for example Chris Evans. He's not super hairy, but the guy deffo has body hair in many films (and, lucky for those of us who like looking at him, he's worn very little clothing in some of them). However, once he appeared as Steve Rogers, his chest looks so smooth that it's on the verge of ridiculous. The most obvious case is right after he transforms from pre-serum Steve Rogers into the beefcake-y post-serum Steve Rogers. There are all these shots of Steve's glistening and bare torso. The viewer wants to reach out and squeeze his pecs of slide a hand over his abs.

The lack of hair on Chris Evans' body (except for his head) is such a strong image that a lot of fans can't help but swoon when he grows a beard (like he usually does in between MCU movies).

Of course, there are guys who can't seem to grow much body hair like, say, Paul Gross and Gerard Way.

[verushka70]

Yeah, like I needed a new fandom! Well, what can you do when the slash seizes you and makes you its bitch.

I am absolutely fine with hairless dudes who are naturally that way... having had a few of them in my past when we were all younger and hotter. It can def be way hot. OTOH, what irks me is the homogeneity of the hairless look. It's like every movie and TV show has the exact same stylist forcing all the actors to be waxed. And when I can look at an actor and see that he is genetically or ethnically clearly hairy (forearms being a strong clue) but he's required to be hairless for the show/movie (as Tyler Hoechlin stated in British TW cast interview), I find that as disturbing as I would find it if all directors and show-runners required actresses to get fake tits just for the part (though I realize that, Hollywood being what it is, many of them have already done so...).

It's the visual monoculture conformity that I find troubling -- and the fact that we're exporting it around the world is equally disappointing. After all this time and feminism and post-modernism... how is it that in the 2nd decade of the 21st centurey, we can't let people be *individuals*, be *themselves*, their *natural* selves...? I'm not saying there's no room for eyecandy (there totally is) but jfc, women used to have bushes, then they became landing strips, then it became hairlessness like a toddler... and now instead of people rejecting that being imposed on women, it's just expanded to men. And (whether people realize it or not) it all started in porn and gay porn but now it's just in all mainstream entertainment. IDK. It's so... plastic. I disliked it (and found it ridiculous and laughable, given that these were Greek men) in 300 just in terms of the unrealism of the visuals and who these men were supposed to be (a bunch of hairy Greeks, for god's sake, and I can say that being Greek and having dated Greek men!). And I was really irritated that it became a pivotal plot point in Trance, which I otherwise loved in a totally trashy way -- but at least that (nominally) provided some perspective via art history. But it's just... everywhere now, at least if it's not a period piece ala Mad Men, apparently. IDEK.

I am, though, rather cheered when I see young dudes out and about rocking face or body hair (of any kind). I just wish they were represented more in media. I don't find the long, straggly ZZ-Top (or even the sculpted Pharaoh) beard look at all appealing, but I think it's kind of a reaction to what we're talking about here, so I get it.

[glitteryv]

What's even more fascinating about the idealized hairlessness in men (as per the media) is that so many of them have what I like to call perma-scruff on their face. Truthfully, very few men can rock out a 5+ o'clock shadow. The majority of them look rather lazy. Especially when they get photographed on the red carpet: there's a handsome fella wearing a very nice and properly fitted suit that costs lots of $$$. And he's wearing some makeup (a lot of male actors are wearing makeup to premieres and the like because of HD photography) and looking handsome...except for the messy, not-quite-hairy neck. IJS.

The thing with young men wearing beards is that some of them don't want to get tagged as "hipsters" since hipster men do rock all kinds of facial hair.

One guy who I normally don't find attractive AT ALL is Chris Pine (from the Star Trek reboots). However, I can't help but REALLY APPRECIATE him wearing a beard (the fact that he's letting some gray hairs show instead of dying them is just the cherry on top).

I do like how distinguised Chris Evans looks when he wears a beard. Particularly because he keeps it well-groomed. That said, I will always have a soft spot for his truck stop hooker photoshoot (at least one of the many from before he got cast as Steve Rogers). >:)

[verushka70]

You are killing me with these linked pics. I actually dig Chris Pine because I was a little girl watching Star Trek reruns in the early 70s, finding Captain Kirk peculiarly attractive (and Spock even more so, 'course). So when Chris Pine came along in the reboot, I was like, omg, *where* did they find William Shatner's bastard son? because he really looks a lot like him. (Not *quite* as hammy an actor, tho, lol!) And Zachary Quinto is SO Spock. I was afraid JJ Abrams would fuck it up but it was about as perfect as one could expect what with Karl Urban, Zoe Saldana, Simon Pegg, Anton Yelchin and John Cho. The casting people did a great job. Wasn't as thrilled with Into Darkness and kind of thought Benedict Cumberbatch was a bit miscast, but you can't have everything.

ST was my first slashy show though I didn't quite realize it as a kid, I just knew I *liked* it (especially what I later identified as the slashy elements). I blame my older sibs. They were always watching wacky stuff like Star Trek (and The Twilight Zone and Monty Python's Flying Circus). I was the second to the last kid, forced to watch what they wanted to watch 'cause I never got to choose if they were around. But yay scifi and British comedy and early slash exposure! Sure, Star Trek reruns now seem so cheesy, but it's been a strangely successful ongoing juggernaut with many permutations for decades now... All started by 3 little seasons of a low-budget scifi show. Kind of amazing.)

Anyhoo... Chris Pine is indeed hotter with a beard. (I do not love him so much that I'll just go see him in *anything*, though -- like the Jack Ryan movies? I skipped 'em all. I'm just tired of such franchises in general... hell, I was tired of them before they cast Pine. I'll confess I was tempted to see that flick with Pine and Reese Witherspoon, but ONLY because Tom Hardy was in it to. I've loved him since Guy Ritchie's RocknRolla, and with Pine and Hardy I figured there might be slash. But you know what? I still haven't seen it.

But JFC... those truck stop hooker pics of Chris Evans are to DIE for. Now I'm all swoony-drool because I've never seen them before. What an unbelievably hot hustler hottie he is. GodDAMN. It's so awesome that the Internet can preserve that which can not be scrubbed so long as it was already collected and is repeatedly reblogged, heh! I may learn to use Tumblr yet if this is a sample of what's to be found there...!

[glitteryv]

I am familiar with Star Trek because of fannish osmosis, but the series (or movies) have never pinged me. Probably due to the fact that my family was really into Star Wars (I have very vivid memories of watching Empire Strikes Back at a drive-in with my parents). As in, enough to watch all the movies and read a lot of the tie-in and professional fic (novels), but it's not as if I can tell you who is who and what part of the canon they're from.

Anyhoo, like it's been said: you can like Star Trek and Star Wars, but you will only really love one. ;P

Is there more than one Jack Ryan movie? Huh. Chris Pine is not someone I keep my eye on (it's not that I dislike him as an actor or person, but that I'm truly neutral when it comes to his body of work). Tom Hardy, otoh, is one my faves. I try to watch everything he is in.

Hahahaha, Chris Evan's truck stop hooker pics are delicious indeed! I kinda wish he did dirty-ish photoshoots like that nowadays. Unfortch, he's gotten a bit scrubbed clean (probably because of the fact that Marvel's a part of Disney). He's still young (early 30s) so there's hope that he will want to get naughty again. In the meantime, allow me to link you to this mini-set of Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan pics that make it look like they're porn actors (or, you know, hustlers). I like to think that they're shooting a porn in which they're both boxers or MMA fighters who end up fucking each other. I mean, really, is there anything else I can come up with? >:)

Don't you just love how the Internet is able to keep a record of things? (LOL!) Tumblr can be very, very unwieldly. However, it's neat to be able to find nearly anything you're looking for. :D!

[verushka70]

I've never heard that saying, but then I am a dilettante-ish scifi fan, so maybe that's why. (I am by no means well-read in scifi -- if it wasn't laying around our house between ~1975 and 1992, like the Bradbury, Pohl, and Heinlein novels my older sibs read -- I probably haven't read it, except for everything William Gibson has ever written and will continue to write.)

I'm not a Star Trek devotee or completist by any means; I just grew up with it and I went through a childhood phase with the original series where I really got into it. But it is incredibly cheesy to watch now. I remember watching the animated series on Saturday mornings and I read some of the episode novelizations, but only because they were laying around the house due to my older sibs (and they were already falling apart with cracked paperback spines and the like). I didn't go out and actually buy the numerous ST novels. I bought one, once. It was okay, but I didn't feel compelled to continue. Of all the permutations, my favorite was ST:TNG (mostly due to Patrick Stewart and the holodeck). I didn't like ST:DS9 much at all, despite Whoopi Goldberg, I rarely watched Voyager, and I never watched the one with Scott Bakula, the name of which escapes me. I saw most of the ST movies, but not all of them -- I missed at least 2, maybe 3. The only one I felt compelled to own and watch again and again was The Wrath Of Khan, largely because of Ricardo Montalban's slit-to-the-navel shirt, lol. I got a couple of the movies on VHS but I didn't rebuy them on DVD.

Actually I'm the same about Star Wars, a dilettante. I saw the first two movies (Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back) probably about 30 times each in theaters on first and second runs and revivals. When they came out on VHS I bought both (but I haven't re-bought them on DVD). After Star Wars, I got a plastic R2D2 model kit and actually completed it and I got a Lego X-wing kit one year for xmas because I asked for it. I was less than happy with Return Of The Jedi, but that was mostly because of the Ewoks.

But when the prequels started coming out in the 90s and 00s, I just couldn't get into it. The mythology was too complex and convoluted and frankly the newer movies were not as exciting to me as the first two. But I will forever have a huge soft spot for Empire Strikes Back, despite the cliffhanger ending with Han encased in carbonite. I think it is the most dramatically compelling of all of them all. (Han Solo FTW!) But that's coming from someone who didn't see the last two Star Wars movies, lol.

I thought there were 2 Jack Ryan movies, but maybe I'm wrong? I dunno, I don't really keep up with Chris Pine despite the pretty.

And apparently you ARE trying to kill me, because that top pic of Chris Evans taping his hands on that link to your Tumblr is so positively pornalicious that my jaw literally dropped and my freakin' heart *palpitated*. I might as well have been one of those Looney Tunes cartoon wolves with the eyes that pop out the size of dinner plates.

That shot with the boxing glove hanging in his lap looks obscene even though he's clothed. Jesus. The hotness. Okay, I give in: I will watch all of the Captain America movies. I've been meaning to catch up on all the MCU anyway, though a quick perusal of the MCU Wikipedia page shows that I actually *have* seen all of the movies except the last four. I wanted to see Ant Man anyway, just because I've always liked Paul Rudd.

Just kidding! I will see The Winter Soldier, lol. You convinced me with your softcore eye candy. Although I like your version of Chris Evans in all these older photo shoots much better than the Photoshopped and waxed version in the MCU.

Now that I'm looking at the list of all the MCU movies and when they came out, my viewing drop-off coincides with my breakup from my ex. We used to go to the movies all the time (we preferred the over 21 luxury theaters that serve booze and food and where, typically, there are no children to be found ruining one's movie-going experience, yay). But since we broke up there's just my besties (2 of the 3 are men). Both guy besties are not big moviegoers at all unless it's either a movie with Madonna (sigh -- I love her, but I'm not a completist) or something weird, perverse, esoteric, or in German (preferably all four). My one girl friend works nights at her other job on the days we don't work together and her husband makes her life difficult when she wants to go out with her friends because he's such an insecure, jealous, controlling loser. So I have gone to very few movies in the last 2 years, whereas I used to see every blockbuster within a few weeks of its release.

I did actually go out to my local video store where I still have a video card that I haven't used in like 4 years... and they were closed. I think they're going out of business. Maybe I can find the MCU Captain America movies via Red Box? I don't have the DVD thing with Netflix, just streaming.

But you have succeeded in convincing me. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, once I sort out my VPN options and pick one and pay for it, fuck it -- I'll just DL all the Captain America movies! \o/

[glitteryv]

I've never heard that saying...

I have. Especially because, in the majority of cases, people will choose one over the other. At least from what I've seen.

And apparently you ARE trying to kill me, because that top pic of Chris Evans taping his hands on that link to your Tumblr is so positively pornalicious that my jaw literally dropped and my freakin' heart *palpitated*.

\o/!

Okay, I give in: I will watch all of the Captain America movies.

Hahaha, my work here is done! Just kidding, I'd just wanted to share the pretty that is dirrrty Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan (the latter who has a few movies and TV shows where he: a)hooks up/makes out with dudes and b)cries VERY prettily. Sebastian Stan's pre-MCU wheelhouse was queer dude who looks super pretty when he's crying. SERIOUSLY.

I'm pretty sure that both Captain America: The First Avenger and "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" are available on Redbox. TBH, The First Avenger is OK since it's an origin story (and it ends in an angsty point if that's your thing).

Funnily enough, I almost didn't watch The Winter Soldier because Fandom was going hardcore with the hype. So I ended up watching it about 7 or 8 months after it came out. Since I don't believe in pressure hype (i.e. the whole "you MUST watch this RIGHT NOW!") thing, all I'm going to say about The Winter Solder is that I was very pleasantly surprised. :)

[verushka70]

Okay, I'll check RedBox. I don't think I've seen Sebastian Stan in anything before -- if I haven't seen the Captain America flicks, would I have seen him in anything? Must do a Roku name search -- it will find anything available via Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon Prime (or whatever other "channels" are available). \o/ I'm *fine* with pretty crying dudes. To quote Madonna, "you're beautiful when you're broken down." I love them like that. An old web page I used to visit in the 1990s was titled, "Tall, Dark and Tortured," lol! It was a web page by a gay dude who loved that type, so it was loaded with photos of actors like Jeremy Irons, Gabriel Byrne, etc.

I understand the resistance to hardcore hype. It is very off-putting. It put me off BlindSpot most recently... but to probably dozens of movies in the past couple decades. I don't know why but if everyone is abuzz about something (or the relentless PR hype machine is going full bore), even if it's something I would normally probably like, it makes me less likely to see it, not more.

[glitteryv]

I don't think I've seen Sebastian Stan in anything before [...]

*cracks knuckles*

You want to check out The Architect (which is an oldish 2005 or 2006, movie). Sebastian is the architect's gay son and he had the B-story. He gets involved in a kinda dub-conny relationship with a young hustler. It's a slightly somber story arc.

Also, there's The Covenant (which wanted to be the all-male version of The Craft). REALLY BAD MOVIE. SebStan plays an evil warlock, pouts a lot, does some terrible things, and (in one very short scene) kisses one of the good warlocks. Like I said: HORRIBLE MOVIE (though, really, no worse than the majority of films that make up CKR's body of work).

Kings was a TV show that only had 1 12-episode season. In this series, SebSan plays the villain's closeted son. LOTS OF SHOTS OF SEBSTAN CRYING (AND LOOKING SOOOO PRETTY IT HURTS). Oh, he's also in love with the male lead (the hero).

Political Animals is a 6-episode limited series that aired on the USA network a few years ago. Sigourney Weaver is the wife of a former US president. She's now considering running for Vice President. SebStan plays their son who was outed by the media while his father was in office. He's got substance abuse problems (and lots of yummy makeouts with dudes).

I remember watching this because I wanted to see Sigourney Weaver, Ciaran Hinds, and Ellen Burstyn. Had a sorta vague memory of SebStan until I rewatched the series. It's on Netflix.

Oh, he also played the Mad Hatter in a few S1 and S2 episodes of Once Upon a Time. I was mostly /o\ because, like all ABC TV shows, the F/X are SO BAD that they almost kept me from watching SebStan with his eyeliner and ~fancy vest and coat combo~. With the exception of the season currently airing, all the episodes are available on Netflix.

Other than that, SebStan's done bits here and there. More recently, he's part of the main cast of The Martian (which I've yet to finish reading).

I hope this will give you some stuff to check out.

well now you've done it (just kidding)

[verushka70]

Okay, so I got CA: The Winter Soldier from RedBox last night. And, because last weekend I finally bought the new model of the previous HD TV I'd bought that my ex took, I was able to watch TWS on my new 43" LED HD TV in Dolby surround-sound! Sweet! \o/

Foolishly (or not?) I also rented Avengers: Age of Ultron. So I sadly don't have time to re-watch CA:TWS, which I would like to. (Ideally I would have rented CA:TFA and CA:TWS together. But the first RedBox I went to didn't have CATWS, only A:AoU, so I rented that but I had to go to *another* Redbox for TWS -- and that one didn't have CA:TFA. Sigh! And there just weren't enough hours between then and now, when I'm taking both DVDs back, to watch superhero movie DVDs!)

I figured TWS would be all slashy -- Steve/Bucky slashy -- but interestingly the biggest slash vibe I got from TWS was Sam/Steve. Which is cool (and bonus: wingfic is canonical).

I haven't yet watched any of the Sebastian Stan stuff you recommended, but I'll put it in my queues. I want to rewatch CA:TFA and CA:TWS back to back first, though.

Y'know, I get that all comic book superhero movies are epic because the stories of the superheroes are epic. I'm happy enough with XM's (slashy) 'verse and the angsty tragic history of Wolverine. Whereas the whole Avengers 'verse is so populated now, it's hard to stay on top of all the movies, let alone the superheroes.

But I do like how each of these different comics 'verses address (directly or metaphorically/allegorically) the "otherism" that grips modern post-9/11 industrialized/first world societies. XM uses the fear of mutants as a metaphor for populist/conformist xenophobia/exclusion/marginalization/political control of minorities... whereas the Avengers' 'verse addresses the implications and consequences of modern security/intelligence-gathering/surveillance/pre-emptive policing vs. freedom/liberty.

Captain America is a great touchstone for that because of his pre-Cold War/pre-McCarthyism/pre-Viet Nam origin -- so he has that generation's more idealistic version of patriotism and can portray the dismay of that generation wrt modern "security" and blanket surveillance of citizens. Edward Snowden is never explicitly mentioned in TWS but I kept thinking about him -- especially when Natasha dumps everything from SHIELD onto the Internet.

Anyway, both TWS and A:AoU looked really fantastic on my new big screen LED HDTV. The new LED HD TV replaced the first big screen HDTV I bought myself 10 years ago -- the one I took with me when my ex and I split, when he got the new one that I didn't even want as a physical reminder of "us" and what I'd put into "us" and all for naught. My old LCD TV was an old, heavy, clunky 37" Olevia flatscreen for which I paid twice what I paid for the new one (go figure).

What's weird is both TVs have about the same dimensions but the old TV is about 4-5 times thicker (and much, much heavier). The new one fits a ton more screen space into the same dimensions because where the frame surrounding the old screen is 3.5-4.5", on the new TV the frame around the screen is a very slim 1" on 3 sides with maybe 2" on the bottom.

A long-time friend of mine's tube TV just broke so I'm going to give him my old 37" flatscreen. It seems pretty indestructible and there was nothing wrong with it. It just didn't have the color bandwidth(lots of banding when watching TV or DVDs), the HD resolution (only 720p, as opposed to 1080p), or frame and refresh rate (for high speed action) of the one I had bought for my ex and I.

Of course it's not just about the TV... at the end of this coming December, it'll be 2 years since my ex and I split. It was about time I "get back" the TV I bought "us" and gave up to him. Or get a new one. So I did the latter.
*fist pump*
Yeah!

Re: well now you've done it (just kidding)

[glitteryv]

Huzzah at watcing CA:TWS as well as AoU!!! I'm mildly surprised that TFA wasn't available on Redbox. OTOH, it's the oldest of all MCU (current canon) movies. I'm thinking that it'll be popping up on Netflix sometime before CA:CW premieres in May.

I figured TWS would be all slashy -- Steve/Bucky slashy -- but interestingly the biggest slash vibe I got from TWS was Sam/Steve. Which is cool (and bonus: wingfic is canonical).

Yesss! I didn't want to tell you when I recced you TWS about the many possibilities for slash. Of course, Steve/Bucky was there (I'd say that 90% of Steve's motivation was Bucky and that, in his own broken way, Steve was a partial motivation for Bucky too). However, Sam/Steve was strong, yo!

I remember reading meta that stated Steve was in a political rom com (if you will). He was the Object of Desire with Bucky being the old flame turning up at the least expected moment and Sam being the potential new romance partner. I mean, Steve and Sam flirted like WHOA at the beginning of the movie (after a meet cute even!)

The Fandom is deffo into Steve/Bucky (duh), but there's also a rather strong Sam/Steve contingent around. Steve/Sam/Bucky is deffo around. AND, if you want to expand the poly ship juuuust a bit, there's the Barbershop Quartet: Steve/Sam/Natasha/Bucky. My OTP is Sam/Bucky--which I know doesn't have much canon in TWS or AoU. However, I've seen enough pics that show that there will be some more bits and pieces added to my OTP in Civil War (so yays!)

Captain America is a great touchstone for that because of his pre-Cold War/pre-McCarthyism/pre-Viet Nam origin -- so he has that generation's more idealistic version of patriotism and can portray the dismay of that generation wrt modern "security" and blanket surveillance of citizens. Edward Snowden is never explicitly mentioned in TWS but I kept thinking about him -- especially when Natasha dumps everything from SHIELD onto the Internet.

Indeed. TBH, I really liked how reflective and timely TWS was in regards to what's going on in the real world.

My read on Steve is that he's definitely not the squeaky clean, "good boy" that some people might see him as. He'll do whatever he has to do to complete the mission, but he hasn't lost sight of the fact that governments are meant to be held accountable.

I was slightly disappointed with AoU. Despite the fact that there was a lot I liked (the in media res beginning, James Spader's Ultron), I was also annoyed and frustrated by Whedon stepping all over the canon and basically undoing a lot of the awesomeness from TWS.

Basically, he's gone on record about how his fave character is Tony Stark (with Steve being his least fave). This bias becomes pretty obvious when you look at the characterization of Steve in TWS (possibly depressed and suffering from a mild case of PTSD, having a complex personality who has no problems with breaking through the "perfect soldier" image that's been sold to the masses) vs. the characterizations for The Avengers and AoU (he's a prude who won't cuss, he's totally clueless/out of step with all aspects of modern life).

One of the worst things that AoU did (and the one thing that I can't forgive Whedon for) is that at the end of TWS, Steve and Sam decide to go on a mission to find Bucky. In AoU, Steve and Sam talk about Sam's failed searches. It would've really helped to see them talk about Bucky and the search a little bit more because the way Steve talked about was way too casual (especially after watching TWS).

I also hated (HATED) the way Natasha came off in AoU vs. TWS.

Even though Tony's going to be in Civil War (since that's part of main plot), I can't help but look forward to that movie. It's got the same cast and was shot by the same people that did TWS.

I like how much canon there is. IIRC, Steve/Tony is THE ship based on the comics (I think there's even one issue that has an always a girl!Steve who marries Tony). The only thing is that comics!Steve is less snarky and more of a hardass. Meanwhile, Tony's a bit sweeter and not so obnoxious as movie!Tony.

But, yeah, there's a lot of canon to wade through (which is why I'm not really into reading their comic book versions).

Re: well now you've done it (just kidding)

[verushka70]

I mean, Steve and Sam flirted like WHOA at the beginning of the movie (after a meet cute even!)
True, very true. Rewatching CA:TFA I got the whole Steve/Bucky vibe, but TWS really brings the Steve/Sam imo. I also totally see the rom-com angle of Bucky=old flame/Sam=new flame, though obvs these are not rom-coms.

It is interesting, though, that they keep Steve from getting it on with any women, really. While I superfically buy the whole Agent-Carter torch-bearing and "haven't dated a woman in DECADES" stories, in reality his whole thing is far more likely to result from the fact that all his formative years he was a sickly, skinny, scrawny guy, and then when he was old enough and had something to prove, he couldn't get into the US Army no matter how many times he cheated and tried. All that's got to have left some emotional scars, making it difficult for him to make a move on anyone, male or female.

Indeed. TBH, I really liked how reflective and timely TWS was in regards to what's going on in the real world.

Yep.

My read on Steve is that he's definitely not the squeaky clean, "good boy" that some people might see him as. He'll do whatever he has to do to complete the mission, but he hasn't lost sight of the fact that governments are meant to be held accountable.

He's basically a moral person who questions things. He's also, unlike Tony (for example), not narcissistic or borderline megalomaniac... so he doesn't have the chutzpah (or arrogance) to think he can just do what he wants (or that anyone should) because the end always justifies the means; he knows that's not true. I think that's probably because he was that sickly, scrawny boy/guy for his whole life before becoming CA.

I was slightly disappointed with AoU. Despite the fact that there was a lot I liked (the in media res beginning, James Spader's Ultron), I was also annoyed and frustrated by Whedon stepping all over the canon and basically undoing a lot of the awesomeness from TWS.

I was going to ask what you meant by this last sentence, but then you explain it. :-) AoU was very whiz-bang "ACTION MOVIE!"-ish which TWS sort of wasn't, even though it was. In a way TWS was more than the sum of its parts, where as AoU was less. I felt, anyway.

Basically, he's gone on record about how his fave character is Tony Stark (with Steve being his least fave).

Oh god, really? *loses respect for JW on this alone* Well, that explains why Tony Stark has become more and more annoying over the course of the movies -- and I like RDJr, I've always liked him, ever since Less Than Zero a million years ago (so pretty, so broken, so gay-for-drugs, lol).

Egad, that means... Tony Stark is a Mary Sue! ICK!! Wow, this explains so much...!

This bias becomes pretty obvious when you look at the characterization of Steve in TWS (possibly depressed and suffering from a mild case of PTSD, having a complex personality who has no problems with breaking through the "perfect soldier" image that's been sold to the masses) vs. the characterizations for The Avengers and AoU (he's a prude who won't cuss, he's totally clueless/out of step with all aspects of modern life).

Yeah, I noticed all that and I was like, wha...? Oh, because Tony's around, CA is suddenly the anti-Tony? But if Tony is Joss, then Tony has to be the coolest and no one else is allowed to be as cool as Tony. Egad, this is awful.

One of the worst things that AoU did (and the one thing that I can't forgive Whedon for) is that at the end of TWS, Steve and Sam decide to go on a mission to find Bucky. In AoU, Steve and Sam talk about Sam's failed searches. It would've really helped to see them talk about Bucky and the search a little bit more because the way Steve talked about was way too casual (especially after watching TWS).

Yeah, that was puzzlingly superficial... but now it makes sense why. (But *why*, JW, wtf is wrong with you that you Mary Sue-ed yourself to Tony Stark, WHY?? You used to be so cool...)

I also hated (HATED) the way Natasha came off in AoU vs. TWS.

Yeah, I was like, Wait, what?? What happened to Natasha between then and now?

Even though Tony's going to be in Civil War (since that's part of main plot), I can't help but look forward to that movie. It's got the same cast and was shot by the same people that did TWS.

Well, that's good. Hopefully Tony won't steal the show as he always seems to want to (and be written to do). I also found it curious that Pepper was absent from AoU. I wasn't sure if that was due to a scheduling conflict for Paltrow or if she asked for more $$ than they were willing to pay her. It was a weird continuity blip, and having Tony address it as a matter of "billions-of-dollars corporations to run, girl's gone global" was unconvincing (though perhaps nothing would have been particularly convincing). I don't really care -- I guess she's not essential -- but it was one of those "throw you out of the story" moments.

I like how much canon there is. IIRC, Steve/Tony is THE ship based on the comics

Wow, really? I don't even see that. I could see Bruce/Tony more than Steve/Tony, but that's based only on the movies.

(I think there's even one issue that has an always a girl!Steve who marries Tony).

Wow. When were those comics written? Recently, or long ago, or in between? That seems remarkably progressive.

The only thing is that comics!Steve is less snarky and more of a hardass. Meanwhile, Tony's a bit sweeter and not so obnoxious as movie!Tony.

Hmmm. Interesting. Not interesting enough for me to read the comics, lol, but interesting, especially in light of how they've changed when they were written for movies.

But, yeah, there's a lot of canon to wade through (which is why I'm not really into reading their comic book versions).

I can understand that.

Sorry for the late reply to this. Still struggling w/tendinitis. And now SAD too I guess or the usual fibro malaise. Sigh.

Re: well now you've done it (just kidding)

[glitteryv]

It definitely makes sense to me that Steve wouldn't be into dating anyone right now. He's been out of the ice for less than 5 years and have had to adapt to 70 or so years of history that he missed out on. Plus his visits to old!Peggy would most probably put a damper on him romancing a new gal.

In the fandom, Steve's considered to be 100% bisexual. Bucky's also labeled as bisexual. That said, there are people who considered him to be pansexual and/or genderfluid. At least, that's how things have ended up on the corners of the fandom I hang around.

Based on what I know of the Civil War comics, I think that the upcoming movie is going to have Steve/Sharon becoming quasi (if not, full) canon.

According to interviews and other media, Joss Whedon likes how "playful" RDJ is when it comes to shooting as many takes as possible. To that I have to add that he probably heart-eyes RDJ because, out of the entire cast, he's the one who can make all the Whedonesque quips come across as very organic. Kinda like Sarah Michelle Gellar did in Buffy and Nathan Fillion did in Firefly. So I can sorta get that angle. It doesn't stop me from rolling my eyes at JW.

He has also gone on record about not really liking CA as a character (because he's boring). TBH, I think Steve Rogers is the King of Sassiness, but to each his own, I guess.

I also found it curious that Pepper was absent from AoU.

*nods* After all, she was there for the first Avengers movie. I wonder why Gweneth Paltrow didn't appear.

Re: Steve/Tony

In the comics, they are super-duper BFFs. And the thing is that there are thousands of comic book issues that help frame their dynamic in many different ways (See this ship manifesto that has a lot of the 50 or so year history covering a lot of the important things up to 2008. SPOILERS FOR CIVIL WAR).

For all intent and purposes, Steve/Tony is a mostly drama-free ship...until the Civil War storyline. It's basically two people who are super-close with each other being at total opposite ends.

I...don't really know how well that's going to translate to the movie? Especially because Steve and Tony aren't exactly friends in the MCU. Tony remains unimpressed by Steve (given that his father--who knew Steve way back when--was canonically obsessed with him) and thinks he's a stick in the mud. Meanwhile, Steve thinks Tony's completely selfish and annoying.

Like I said, I think that Civil War will be a very different movie from what people are expecting. Like you, I'm hoping that RDJ reins it in (as much as he can) since this is actually CA's movie. I guess we'll have to wait and see about that.

Oh, and here's the pic of Steve and girl!Tony in their wedding day. AFAIK, it's kinda like a random thing thrown in an issue of Fantastic Four.

Sorry for the late reply to this. Still struggling w/tendinitis. And now SAD too I guess or the usual fibro malaise. Sigh.

No worries, bb. You take as long as you need to reply. *gives you lots of gentle hugs*

Re: well now you've done it (just kidding)

[verushka70]

In the fandom, Steve's considered to be 100% bisexual. Bucky's also labeled as bisexual. That said, there are people who considered him to be pansexual and/or genderfluid. At least, that's how things have ended up on the corners of the fandom I hang around.

Is this MCU fandom, or comics fandom? Or both? (Also, in this context, what do you mean by pansexual mean? "will have sex with anyone/anything/is polyamorous" -- or something else, lol?)

According to interviews and other media, Joss Whedon likes how "playful" RDJ is when it comes to shooting as many takes as possible.

I kind of like it too, and I can see how that would be valued or not depending what type of director you are -- do you want them to say the lines as written or to ad-lib and give you some great surprise material to work with; do you want to stick to the shooting schedule or are you okay with being behind schedule if it gets you said great material. It certainly would give you more to play with in editing and more special features for DVDs...

tbh wrt RDJ's "playful" way of playing Tony -- and I admit this is my own fetish, although to be fair it also gave Tony internal conflict and made him a more sympathetic character -- I liked the first Iron Man movie and the Tony of that movie way better than the more recent Iron Man movies and their Tony Stark, because in the first movie he had really dark moments and serious angst that tempered his cocky playfulness, and it was more obvious that that fast-talking glibness was a cover for the dark moments and internal angst. As the movies have progressed, he's had less of those dark moments, has become more cocksure and flippant, and has therefore become a lot less compelling and sympathetic as a character (esp a superhero). And if I had to choose my favorite of the Iron Man movies, it's Iron Man 1 for that reason.

For characters like that, the more things work out for them and the glibber/cockier they are/become, the more they approach arrogance/asshole-ishness. They need some humanity and vulnerability -- flaws -- to make them relateable, conflicted, sympathetic. That's why movie superheroes are flawed or have double/secret identities/lives -- it makes them sympathetic. And although I'm not a comic book fan, that's kind of a general theme in various epics, myths, classic tragedies and great literature -- hubris, pride going before a fall. Tony has that -- his trajectory practically begs for him to be knocked down a few pegs.

I was surprised that throughout AoU Tony still seemed fairly unrepentant about what had happened with Ultron (not sure if AoU is even a part of the comic book canon). He failed to perceive/acknowledge that the problem was not that Ultron unexpectedly became sentient and escaped, but that the concept and execution occurred secretly without input from anyone else among the Avengers. That kind of thinking is relevant to and resonant with our post-9/11, post-Snowden, post-NSA-snooping world.

But I was frankly surprised and disappointed -- given Whedon's past work -- that Stark seemed to be defending that position. So unless JW's planning to bring this to a logical (tragic) conclusion for Stark in Civil War (as if what happened in Ultron wasn't bad/backlash enough -- which it apparently wasn't, at least not for Tony to change his position on it iirc), the only way to take that (with the new information from you about JW's fanboyishness wrt Tony) is that Whedon himself (Gary Stu-ing) supports that perspective. And that is surprising and disappointing and not something I saw coming given JW's past stuff like BTVS. I mean, I only saw A:AoU once, but that was one of the major surprising take-aways I got from it.

To that I have to add that he probably heart-eyes RDJ because, out of the entire cast, he's the one who can make all the Whedonesque quips come across as very organic. Kinda like Sarah Michelle Gellar did in Buffy and Nathan Fillion did in Firefly. So I can sorta get that angle. It doesn't stop me from rolling my eyes at JW.

Okay, I get that, I guess... but that never stopped him from making Buffy flawed and troubled. Although as JW's protagonists and his career have progressed, I guess they've all become more Han Solo-ish (who, iirc, was the character most fetishized by the BTVS S6 trio of geek villains led by Warren -- other than Boba Fett in that one ep, lol).

He has also gone on record about not really liking CA as a character (because he's boring).

Yeah, but (having looked at the links you included) so what? JW's personal perceptions about CA don't give him the right to utterly ignore existing comic book canon while working/writing in the Marvel Avengers universe, especially since there is so much canon. Doing so is just kind of lazy Gary Stu writing. Because it's not about him, so I'm sort of amazed he didn't/doesn't get that. How is it that a major big deal like JW, with all his experience, doesn't recognize that the scores of Marvel comic book/Avengers/CA fans deserve a MCU that is fair to all the Avengers characters and built on canonical dynamics and plots, not on his personal identification with one character and his perceptions of that character in relation to others?

I mean, *whoever* writes any given part of the MCU should both heart-eye and side-eye all the Avengers equally, not play personal favorites. If he's such a big Marvel comics fan, why can't he do that or see that? I'm perplexed and disappointed to hear this.

TBH, I think Steve Rogers is the King of Sassiness, but to each his own, I guess.

I think Steve's sass is a more droll, reserved, WWII era snark, which is inherently less obnoxious/entitled than Tony's 21st century cockiness. I'm no authority by any means; this is just my perception based solely on 1-3 viewings of each of the MCU movies, not as a reader of the Marvel comics. But one of my friends has mentioned more than once that in her culture (Mexican) there's a saying: "It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission." I think that's a perfect encapsulation of Tony the way he's presented in MCU, whereas Steve's MCU characterization is the opposite -- and that difference governs their individual snark/sass.

Ultimately I think it boils down to (1) Steve thinks more before he speaks than Tony does (if Tony does at all; he often seems to have no filter, which can be both fun/hilarious/truthful and mean/obnoxious/hurtful), and (2) Steve has more of a conscience than Tony, he'd care if he hurt someone whereas Tony probably wouldn't unless it was Pepper or interfered with him doing his thing/getting what he needed from others on the team to accomplish a task/project.

Hmm. Now that I re-read that and think about it, that makes it seem like I'm saying Tony is more sociopathic than Steve. Not that he is a sociopath -- that's not what I'm saying -- just that, on a spectrum from 0 to 100 percent sociopath, Tony is probably much closer to the 100% sociopath side than Steve would ever be. Maybe that's a function of growing up a rich boy who gets whatever he wants and suffers few if any consequences when he's bad vs. a growing up a kind of sickly, scrawny guy who was probably always the last to get picked for any team. Or maybe I just have less sympathy for the guys who always got everything handed to them than the guys who had to work for it, prove themselves, and earn it. Probably a combination of both, lol.

For all intent and purposes, Steve/Tony is a mostly drama-free ship...until the Civil War storyline. It's basically two people who are super-close with each other being at total opposite ends. I...don't really know how well that's going to translate to the movie? Especially because Steve and Tony aren't exactly friends in the MCU.

Well, I can sure see how all that is a potential problem. And it need not have been -- if JW hadn't prioritized his perceptions of CA and Tony over the actual canon and sort of Gary Stu-ed Tony up to the point of Civil War. But what's done is done -- and I can see why you think
Like I said, I think that Civil War will be a very different movie from what people are expecting. Like you, I'm hoping that RDJ reins it in (as much as he can) since this is actually CA's movie. I guess we'll have to wait and see about that.
because, yeah, not sure how the two different canons and Tony/Steve dynamics can possibly be synchronized or even meet in the middle.

Tony remains unimpressed by Steve (given that his father--who knew Steve way back when--was canonically obsessed with him) and thinks he's a stick in the mud. Meanwhile, Steve thinks Tony's completely selfish and annoying.

I didn't read all the way through the ship manifesto in order to avoid spoilers for Civil War, but reading what you wrote there (which seems MCU canonically accurate to me) makes me wonder if Tony's unimpressed-ness with Steve is maybe a cover for feelings of rivalry/jealousy because of his father's canonical obsession with Steve, making it come out as side-eyes and you're-a-stick-in-the-mud. Whereas I kind of can't fault Steve's perception of Tony, lol... based on how the characters have progressed throughout the MCU movies.

Starting a new thread 'cause the other one was getting way too stretchy...

[glitteryv]

Is this MCU fandom, or comics fandom? Or both?

I can only attest to it happening in the MCU fandom (since I don't know about the comics side). My guess is that Chris Evans had a lot of chemistry with SebStan and Hailey Atwell in the first CA movie. There's also the fact that Steve and Bucky lived in a queer area before they went to war. (Here's my receipt). So, technically, there's a bit of a precedent to MCU fandom's notion of a queer CA. IJS.


(Also, in this context, what do you mean by pansexual mean? "will have sex with anyone/anything/is polyamorous" -- or something else, lol?)

Pansexuals are attracted to or have romantic feelings to other people regardless of their sex or gender identity. From what I know, it's (sometimes) considered to be a more inclusive orientation than bisexual because pansexuals are into people who are agender, genderqueer, genderfluid, androgynous, intersex in addition to trans* as well as cisgender people. FTR, there's more than enough room to debate whether or not bisexuals are pansexuals (and viceversa). Frankly, I'm from the school of thought of no one can dictate what someone else's labels or self-definitions are. Some people might feel more comfortable with bisexual over pansexual. For others, those are two very different orientations. #Thusendeththelesson ;)


As the movies have progressed, he's had less of those dark moments, has become more cocksure and flippant, and has therefore become a lot less compelling and sympathetic as a character (esp a superhero).

Definitely. I think that there was a tiny!redemption moment at the end of the first Avengers movie. Though it was so manipulative that it doesn't quite worked for me after a few viewings of the movie. I think that, if anything, Tony's regressed (at least emotionally) as a characters. *hands*


I was surprised that throughout AoU Tony still seemed fairly unrepentant about what had happened with Ultron (not sure if AoU is even a part of the comic book canon).

AoU is canon. In the comics, though, it is Hank Pymn (the first dude who'd become Ant-Man) who created Ultron. I'm thinking that TPTB thought it'd be more expedient, for narrative purposes, to have Tony be Ultron's creator.

Though, yeah, Tony's all "oh, I created Ultron. My bad! Now let me turn around and crate another sentient AI because it's the perfect solution". It was around that time when I disengaged emotionally from Tony. Like, he knew he'd messed up and still went and did the same thing? What kind of logic is that?

I think that's why most of the lab scenes in AoU dragged for me. There really wasn't anything Tony could say (especially while trying to convince Bruce to help him A SECOND TIME) that would make me feel any kind of sympathy for him.

Something tells me that Pepper would've been able to keep Tony from fucking up a second time. :-/


So unless JW's planning to bring this to a logical (tragic) conclusion for Stark in Civil War

Thankfully, JW is not involved with Civil War at all. He basically went on record that he's taking a long ass vacay after making AoU happen. He also made it known that he was mostly displeased with the final cut of the movie. He co-wrote the script, IIRC. One of the biggest hurdles he had to face was advancing the overall plot from the previous MCU movies while, at the same time, dropping hints/clues for events that won't happen until future movies like Infinity War parts 1 and 2.

(His original cut was about 40 minutes to an hour longer (allegedly). He also ignored CA: TWS almost in its entirety. So there we are).

The fact that the same team who worked in CA: TWS is the same team who's doing CA: CW is a big reason for me to feel hopeful. *crosses fingers just in case*


makes me wonder if Tony's unimpressed-ness with Steve is maybe a cover for feelings of rivalry/jealousy because of his father's canonical obsession with Steve, making it come out as side-eyes and you're-a-stick-in-the-mud

Oh, most definitely. Howard Stark is deeply involved in the project that made Steve into a supersoldier. In addition, he's also near Steve when Steve goes to war.

Now, I remember this one line Tony says in the first Avengers movie (something like "That is the guy my dad couldn't shut up about?") around the halfway point. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of contempt from Tony whenever it comes to anything Steve-related. Well, at least in the movies.

In the comics, there are hints that Howard Stark became a horrible (possibly physically and emotionally abusive) father to Tony. And then, he died sometime in Tony's teenage years. So, there's a potential for resentment to set in...which never really happens in the comics (because Tony and Steve become BFFs).

It's all a bit reversed (and, also, the darker parts of Tony's personality and personal history have been painted over or otherwise ignored) in the MCU.

TBH, it's ten kinds of funny that I don't ship MCU!Steve/Tony since I do love me some "opposites attract" kind of ships. Maybe I'm already getting that from MCU!Steve/Bucky? Who knows? \o?

Re: Starting a new thread &#39;cause the other one was getting way too stretchy...

[verushka70]

There's also the fact thatSteve and Bucky lived in a queer area before they went to war. (Here's my receipt). So, technically, there's a bit of a precedent to MCU fandom's notion of a queer CA. IJS.

I read the link that you sent. How fascinating! it sounds like it was well and truly gay even before Steve lived there. it's always great when real history matches up with fanon. and that really makes me wonder, who were the comic book authors, who were writing this stuff? at the time that they were writing it, they must have known that it was a gay cruising area too. I know that there's a lot of interesting subtext in a lot of superhero comics. I haven't explored it much, because I'm not really a comics person. but this is really fascinating. and, I would imagine, very, very validating for all the slash writers and for all the gay readers!

Some people might feel more comfortable with bisexual over pansexual. For others, those are two very different orientations. #Thusendeththelesson ;)

K thanks for the explanation. I was unaware of the subtleties of definition involved. but I can see Steve as pansexual.

Though, yeah, Tony's all "oh, I created Ultron. My bad! Now let me turn around and crateanother sentient AI because it's the perfect solution". It was around that time when I disengaged emotionally from Tony. Like, he knew he'd messed up and still went and did the same thing? What kind of logic is that? 

yeah, that was a very WTF moment.

I think that's why most of the lab scenes in AoU dragged for me. There really wasn't anything Tony could say (especially while trying to convince Bruce to help him A SECOND TIME) that would make me feel any kind of sympathy for him.

yeah, & I found it kind of unbelievable that Bruce actually went along with it.  it was one of those moments where the plausibility of that moment dropped to almost nothing and threatened to throw me out of the story entirely -- not Tony, more Bruce, who I was really surprised didn't put up more of a fight.

Something tells me that Pepper would've been able to keep Tony from fucking up a second time. :-/

I thought that too.

Thankfully, JW is not involved with Civil War at all. He basically went on record that he's taking a long ass vacay after making AoU happen.

well I guess that's good.

He also made it known that he was mostly displeased with the final cut of the movie. He co-wrote the script, IIRC. One of the biggest hurdles he had to face was advancing the overall plot from the previous MCU movies while, at the same time, dropping hints/clues for events that won't happen until future movies like Infinity War parts 1 and 2.

well, I can see how that would be a narrative nightmare for writing and directing. but then again, how hard can it be when you've already fucked with the canon so much? :-/

(His original cut was about 40 minutes to an hour longer (allegedly). He also ignored CA: TWS almost in its entirety. So there we are).

in a way, it seems kind of... I can't think of the right word, that JW would be displeased with the final cut of the movie and apparently rankled at the powers that be for imposing it, while having been allowed by them to ignore major canon in CA:TWS. what the pluses of involvement by Marvel come the minuses. and would they have allowed anyone other than JW to get away with that? (that's rhetorical, I don't really know the answer to that question, & I don't know if you know... but it's interesting to speculate.)

The fact that the same team who worked in CA: TWS is the same team who's doing CA: CW is a big reason for me to feel hopeful. crosses fingers just in case

well that's good.

Now, I remember this one line Tony says in the first Avengers movie (something like "That is the guy my dad couldn't shut up about?") around the halfway point. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of contempt from Tony whenever it comes to anything Steve-related. Well, at least in the movies.

yeah, I remember that line too!

In the comics, there are hints that Howard Stark became a horrible (possibly physically and emotionally abusive) father to Tony. And then, he died sometime in Tony's teenage years. So, there's a potential for resentment to set in...which never really happens in the comics (because Tony and Steve become BFFs). 

It's all a bit reversed (and, also, the darker parts of Tony's personality and personal history have been painted over or otherwise ignored) in the MCU. 

this is really fascinating. I know that most source material gets converted typically for narrative purposes and for consolidation of story and character when novels are adapted for films. I'm trying to think of good examples, & I can't think of many off the top of my head, but for example, Anne Rice's Interview With The Vampire. In that story, the fact that Louis had a wife and children was completely left out of the film, with the exception of showing his grief after their deaths. I understood why Neil Jordan did that.

but comic books are such long, serialized narratives. I can see why that would have huge advantages, but also present a number of problems and challenges in terms of character consistency and narrative continuity across numbers of films.

TBH, it's ten kinds of funny that I don't ship MCU!Steve/Tony since I do love me some "opposites attract" kind of ships. Maybe I'm already getting that from MCU!Steve/Bucky? Who knows? \o?

well, I have no particular ship preference for MCU since I came to the MCU movies cold, knowing nothing. but since I haven't read the comics and I've only seen the MCU movies, I have to say I don't see Tony / Steve at all. most of the films I've only seen once or at most twice, but I can't recall a single scene where Tony and Steve were together that really sparked a nice slashy moment for me. even in an opposites attract kind of way, for there to be slashiness that I sense, there has to have been some kind of little moment or tete-a-tete where a little sliver of chemistry or attraction or humor slips out. and I just haven't seen that between Tony and Steve in the MCU movies. shrug

apologies if this is not grammatically correct or properly spelled. I'm using speech to text and email posting to do it because my tendonitis is still really, really, really bad. I have an appointment Monday with a hand/arm specialist. He already prescribed Celebrex for me, which isn't doing anything in terms of pain but maybe is helping in terms of inflammation. idk. on the other hand, it's kind of cool that I'm learning how to do this email posting stuff with dream width. keeping my fingers crossed that this posts ok!

Sent with AquaMail for Android http://www.aqua-mail.com

Re: Starting a new thread &#39;cause the other one was getting way too stretchy...

[glitteryv]

Yeah, the fact that there's real history supporting the fannish side of things is just delightful, really. I do think that day-to-day life has always had an LGTB+ aspect to it, but that queerness is deemed unsavory for teaching (especially at the grade, middle, and high school levels) because of hypocrisy. But I'm detouring, asfaik, CA was created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. Both of their families were Jewish immigrants (Simon's was from the UK, Kirby's was from Austria). I know that Kirby's family was rather poor and that he served in the army.

So, one could extrapolate that both of they added a lot of their own lives into creating CA.


yeah, & I found it kind of unbelievable that Bruce actually went along with it. it was one of those moments where the plausibility of that moment dropped to almost nothing and threatened to throw me out of the story entirely -- not Tony, more Bruce, who I was really surprised didn't put up more of a fight.

Indeed. I can see why Bruce helped the first time, but I can't find the reasoning behind him yielding to Tony a second time. One could argue that he was interested in the science angle, but that wouldn't hold up in court, really. I'm thinking he helped Tony because he's trying to run away from being the Hulk and feeling like he's got nothing to contribute other than being a vessel for "the other guy". However, that kinda puts him at odds with the way he behave in Avengers 1. Apparently, he won't be in Civil War, but will show up in the third Thor movie (that's set to premier next fall).

Have you watched the Thor movies, by the way? I have to say that they (especially the first one) were my gateway into MCU.


[...]would they have allowed anyone other than JW to get away with that?

I'm gonna go with yes. JW is someone who is well-liked in Hollywood, has worked in several things (as a producer, a film and TV director, a comic book writer, and a script doctor, for example), and has a lot of clout with the nerd crowd. That, coupled with the fact that the first Avengers movie made a lot of money, meant that he most definitely had more leeway that another director would.


but comic books are such long, serialized narratives. I can see why that would have huge advantages, but also present a number of problems and challenges in terms of character consistency and narrative continuity across numbers of films.

Well, comic books themselves have terrible continuity. After a while, titles get rebooted and/or retconned because TPTB themselves can't keep track of which superhero killed/married/fell in love with/turned out to be which supervillain. I mean, just to give you an idea, there have been about 18 - 20 different versions of Captain America (and not all of them are Steve Rogers) in the 50 or so years of Captain America's publishing history!

The problem with the MCU is the dissonance between the Russos' CA and JW's CA portrayals. We also see that with Bruce Banner in Avengers 1 vs. Bruce Banner in Avengers 2 (even though it's the same director and the same actor). From what I know, the Russos (in addition of doing Civil War) will be the directors behind Avengers: Infinity War part 1 and 2. So here's hoping there will be a more steady character flow for Cap and his crew.


even in an opposites attract kind of way, for there to be slashiness that I sense, there has to have been some kind of little moment or tete-a-tete where a little sliver of chemistry or attraction or humor slips out. and I just haven't seen that between Tony and Steve in the MCU movies. shrug

I think that if someone's a Steve/Tony fan from the comics, that person will be super disappointed by the movies (though, for obvious reasons, the same would not happen if a movie!fan goes and checks out the comics). In some ways, I do think there are a few bits in Avengers 1 that could potentially be seen as Steve/Tony slash (mostly the two of them getting in each other's face during the group argument and the last scene when Tony comes back to life and asks if anyone's kissed him. The camera pans to Steve who looks away with what could be argued is a wistful expression).

Though, in all truth, people will ship whatever even if there's no precedent. Tons of people ship Clint/Coulson (it became one of the "the" main ships in the MCU, like Top 5) after the first Thor movie in which those two characters had a brief scene that lasted less than one minute.

Another example is Sam/Bucky (which I ship). Logically-speaking, I don't know why I like that pairing that much, only that I find them irresistible together. And they interacted by fighting each other in a handful of scenes in CA:TWS.

In short, sometimes people will ship the obvious and sometimes they won't. ;P