Licensing fanworks, "the nature of the copyrighted work," Fifty Shades of... No.

[verushka70]

Today I read the AO3 admin post The Case Against Licensing Fanworks and its comments. I agree with the post and the points made, but the comments raised interesting points.

One commenter took issue with with AO3's interpretation of fair/noninfringing use (commercial vs. noncommercial) and also with AO3's "glossing over" of "the substantiality of the portion used in the new work." In response to that, another commenter linked to a Stanford U. Library Copyright and Fair Use web site which has some guidelines on fair use.

I read Stanford's guidelines, but that just raised more questions for me. I posted them in the comments. But I may just email the AO3 legal committee with them, I'm that curious. What piqued my interest was the phrase the nature of the copyrighted work. The Stanford site says

The Nature of the Copyrighted Work

Because the dissemination of facts or information benefits the public, you have more leeway to copy from factual works such as biographies than you do from fictional works such as plays or novels.

In addition, you will have a stronger case of fair use if you copy the material from a published work than an unpublished work. The scope of fair use is narrower for unpublished works because an author has the right to control the first public appearance of his or her expression. (emphasis mine)

Now, AO3's OP seems to interpret the nature of the copyrighted work as commercial vs. noncommercial. Stanford seems to interpret it as both fact vs. fiction and published vs. unpublished.

Obviously AO3 and Stanford interpretations intersect (i.e., published=commercial and unpublished=noncommercial). But here's my question:

What is considered "published" at present?

Are fanworks on web sites considered "published" works, or unpublished works?

Is "published" a term reserved for works that have been printed and bound for hardcopy, or alternatively formatted as ebooks and distributed via commercial ebook publishers?

Or is anything formatted for the web and available for public/anonymous web browsing effectively considered "published"?

Then someone mentioned in the comments to that AO3 fanwork licensing post that Fifty Shades of Gray started as a fanfic.

Now, I haven't read Fifty Shades. Correction: I tried to. Started it, couldn't get into it. That's probably because I've read some serious/classic BDSM, from the original 9 & 1/2 Weeks novel (way more erotic, realistic, and troubling than the movie) to The Story of O (ditto). (I confess I can't read French, so have not read Story of O in the original French, which is supposed to be even more amazing).

Female slavehood is fairly 'meh' to me (femdom or m/m BDSM, now -- rowrrr!), but those two are kind of a gold standard for hot, thinky literary BDSM erotica. If they don't get you hot under the collar, nothing BDSM will. I suppose the reverse is probably true: if other BDSM erotica has left you cool, Story of O or 9 & 1/2 Weeks will probably work wonders for you.

Fifty Shades read like fanfic to me--fairly lame fanfic. I was unimpressed. After I attempted FS and gave up (at least I didn't buy it), I realized it was self-published or vanity published or whatever you want to call that gray area (no pun intended). Well, that was similar to what I had figured anyway.

The last year or so, the whole FS phenomenon totally passed me by; I just tuned it out, because, why wouldn't I. The movie trailer came out on Youtube; I watched it; I was unimpressed. A dozen other actors could have been better cast in that role, imo. But, whatevs, not my thing.

It wasn't until today that I found out -- in the comments to the AO3 admin post on licensing of fanworks -- that FSoG was originally a fanfic. Well, that explained a lot (like, how it read...) but I was curious in which fandom it had originated. So I Googled.

Twilight? AU Bella/Edward BDSM fanfic?

This explains so much.

Like... why I didn't like it to begin with (the same way I could barely finish Twilight and never bothered to read any of the sequels)...

...and why it exploded into this apparently huge phenomenon with tons of adult female fans, which has completely passed me by.

I just don't get some stuff. I really don't. It's not the first time; I'm sure it won't be the last. All my life, I've heard from boys and later men (friends, boyfriends, lovers) -- and also from some girls/women, not necessarily in a good way -- "You're not like other girls/women." This is neither good nor bad. Or, more accurately, it has both advantages and disadvantages; "You're not like other women" can turn into "Why can't you be like other women!?" on a bad day.

(Many many years ago, a therapist suggested that perhaps I unconsciously turned away from femininity (my term: 'being a "girly-girl"') because my model for it (my mother) was berated, belittled, and eventually abused by my father in front of me and my siblings, and rarely if ever fought back. What intelligent girl, the therapist asked, would want to identify with that? A valid point, to be sure. But I'm not sure that explains the differences between my younger sister (2 years younger) and I, and the fact that I never wanted to play dolls with her and she never wanted to play 'hunter' or 'soldier' with me, or the fact that I was always running, jumping, climbing and in general was a total tomboy right up until puberty completely fucked with me, giving me huge childbearing hips and tits and an attraction to cock/muscles/hairy chests while I retained my ineptitude with makeup, nail polish, curling irons and assorted other girl technology.)

At any rate, I suppose Fifty Shades is just the kinder, gentler, informed consent form of BDSM erotica, where Story of O and 9 & 1/2 Weeks are just too hardcore and edgy for most women. There is a contract in Story of O... it happens rather late, though...

Comments

[glitteryv]

50 shades is a bad book. In the sense that it is poorly written, has tremendously one-dimensional characters, mediocre sex scenes, and (worst of all, imho) an incredibly bad depiction of what an imaginary BDSM relationship might be like (not to speak about a real life one).

Its popularity perplexes me (though it's not as if I spend my days thinking about it). I do understand that some people like to read erotic lit and, yes, I know that a lot of what's depicted in erotica is fantasy to the nth degree. What I find worrisome is that people use 50S as a springboard or starting point in their exploration of kink.

Personally, I'm rather ambivalent to M/f when it comes to kink (my preferences, like yours, runs towards femdom or M/M). Still, I've heard of better male!Dom/fem!sub novels out there.

(Oh, and yeah, I read most of the classics--including "O"--back in the day. Looking back, they seem to be filled with a lot of purple prose? Or maybe I've stopped finding them shocking since I got into fandom. I'm not sure about this).

As for the sex scenes, I can easily find at least 100 fics that are ten times hotter and better written. But then, maybe that's where the split begins? In how fic oftentimes fulfills/pushes buttons/is more arousing than pro!fic? I, for one, have definitely noticed how my patience with poorly written pro!fic has decrease through the years.

ETA: TBH, I'm usually O_O at what gets published. Especially nowadays because of how easy self-publishing an ebook is. Some of the covers alone are nightmare-inducing.

[verushka70]

(hey, how's it going?) Yeah, that was my sense: 50S just seemed so badly written. I didn't get very far before I concluded that, but then I didn't see much point continuing cuz the likelihood of it improving was slim to none.

Like you, my tolerance for/patience with badly written pro!fic--prose, let alone erotica--has also dropped over the years, probably partially a result of all the great fanfic out there.

But I also think it's a result of the general lowering of standards: both the ease of self-publishing that you mention, as well as the growing lack of editing at professional publishing companies. Like, how on earth did Twilight even get published in the form that it was published? I mean, it was the antithesis of show, don't tell. Could not believe how badly written it was and I was truly astonished at the droves of adult women who were so into it and all its sequels.

Another case in point would be Laurell K. Hamilton's stuff. I read the first couple books (even though the annoying, uptight, conservative main Anita character was so clearly a Mary Sue) mainly because the premise was interesting and the ancillary characters were cool: she's a necromancer private detective who raises the dead to testify about murders, with a seductive vampire who wants to be her boyfriend that she's not interested in, and a complicated relationship with a wereleopard.

Then in the next couple/few novels the vampire becomes her lover and the wereleopard becomes her super asshole jealous ex. She gets involved with another leopard in addition to the vampire -- clearly no longer the uptight conservative -- then gets into polyamory via a deus ex machina contrivance. Within a couple novels she's not only polyamorous, they're getting into BDSM.

I didn't read all of the books. I had to stop because as this transformation of the character, her sexuality, and her relationships occurred, the writing (never all that great to begin with) took an incredible nosedive. The editing that had been there in the early books basically completely disappeared and the level of eroticism dropped into boring, libido-killing ultra detail, where minutes took pages or whole chapters, and one sex scene could take up a third of a book. It was like watching a slow motion train wreck. Whatever was the last book in the series several years ago, I barely skimmed in the bookstore, dumbfounded. It was just. so. BAD.

Apparently, many fans had similar opinions and commented to that effect on the author's blog. She then made some very defensive posts which she later deleted. (I found all this out after the fact. I didn't follow her blog because I wasn't reading the books after like the 3rd or 4th novel; by then she was on the 9th or 10th. But occasionally I'd check up on the whole train wreck.) Later I read LKH had, after divorcing her first husband, married a much younger man (like one of Anita's primary polyamorous lovers), got into polyamory with him, and got into BDSM. While unsubstantiated, if true, it proved the Anita character was the Mary Sue I'd long suspected she was... but it doesn't explain how/why the possible real life experiences killed the budding eroticism of the writing. As Savage Love would say, HTH (how'd that happen)?

Anyway, point being, I too am amazed at what gets published. LKH is, technically, a pro author, published (like Stephanie Meyer) by a "real" publisher. Go figure.

[glitteryv]

Mind you, I do think there are good books out there. However, it seems to me that find books that are readable (let alone be actually good) is a challenge I'm not interested in participating sometimes.

IMHO, Twilight became popular because it's based on a OTT version of mainstream romantic love. As in "oh, he loves her so much he watches her sleep...EVERY NIGHT!" So I can kinda see some people getting swept away into the fantasy aspect. And they end up handwaving all the asshole behaviour (including stalking) because he cares so much.

Also, the style was all about self-insertion of the reader and, because it was written in a rather simple style, it made for a fast read.

Mind you, I love YAs (have been an avid reader since I was part of the demographic YA authors aimed for.

I have heard about LKH's (d)evolution of her Anita Blake series. Somehow, I never read her books (back when I was really into reading about vampires and supernatural stuff).

But then, I don't need to go that far. Take Anne Rice and Lestat. He's her Gary Stu (and then some!). I was a devout reader of the Vampire Chronicles until book 4 or 5 (I think the last book I read was Memnoch, the Devil)--at which point I was realized how much the books were all about Anne fangirling about Lestat. Soon after that, she renounced the Vampire Chronicles (after going to back to being a Catholic) only to give the Church up and go back to the books.

(Talk about someone who wrote miles and miles of purple prose!)

[verushka70]

I'm so sorry for this late reply. I've had a terrible bout of tendinitis coupled with migraines the last couple weeks. Argh.

I see your point about the self-insertion style of the Twilight series. Come to think of it, that is how 50 Shades read to me in the first few pages--which is why I stopped.

The last AR book I read was also Memnoch The Devil! Lestat's self-preening was so annoying and overbearing that it drowned out the more interesting metaphysical aspects of the story. Before Memnoch, I tried her other series, but couldn't get past the first book, The Witching Hour. One more paragraph on the ringlets of hair of the hunky dude and I was going to shred it. I barely got through that book. It could easily have lost 200-275 pages or more and been IMPROVED.

But I do still have a special fondness for IWTV. Though it is also in a "purple"-ish style, the entire thing is told in Louis' more archaic language, so it doesn't ring as false or ridiculous the prose of her later Lestat novels. I still think IWTV is AR's best novel and the only one really worth re-reading.

I literally saw a LKH hardcover at the dollar store last week. It was $5. You have not missed anything in not reading her. *g* It was never anything but trashy summer reading to me, but when even that is no fun -- and it's supposed to be sexy! -- you know something is wrong.

[glitteryv]

Oh, don't worry, hon. Self-care is super important!

IIRC, I read everything Anne Rice published up to Memnoch The Devil. As a matter of fact, I think I rad 2 more books: Pandora and The Vampire Armand. By then, I'm not sure even she knew what she was writing about since nearly all the vampires' backstories and personalities went off the rails and into OOC-dom. I do think that her writing (up to maybe one book prior--The Tale of the Body Thief?) is very representative of that era.

FWIW, Anne Rice/over-writing is a strong OTP. LOL!

I think that IWTV has something very magical about it. Perhaps because it was a self-contained story. Once Anne Rice started to write about the Vampire Gods and the origins of all vampires, things went sorta wonky. It's been years since I've re-read IWTV, but I did watched the movie quite recently (about two months ago) and it held up quite well. What's more, I totes sided with Lestat this time around (Louis DID whine a lot) *g*

One of the reasons why I didn't get into LKH was that, as I was moving away from Anne Rice's books, I got into Poppy Z. Brite's. Lost Souls, his first book, was a novel that I found to be original and fresh. I mean, punk rock vampires, what's not to love, right? There are two very strong incest pairings (one between father/son and one father/daughter) that are part of the reason why I'm reluctant to re-read it now.

Oh, and I don't think I'd have the stamina to deal with the misogyny throughout the book either. (I do wonder if Brite's own feelings about gender dysphoria [he transition from female to male a few years ago] had anything to do with that).

In any case, looking back, part of the appeal of Lost Souls is that it read sorta fanficc-y back when I didn't know that fic existed.

[verushka70]

*nods* I totally agree; the self-contained nature of IWTV's plot is what I think made it the best novel of all of them. The mythology... I can see how, as a writer, it would be tempting to go in that direction: world-building. But you're right, it began the derailment of everything.

I only read Lost Souls and Wormwood by Poppy Z. Brite. Totally agree: what's not to like about punk rock vampires? But had *no* idea Poppy Z. Brite became F->M trans.

I don't recall misogyny in Lost Souls. But I read it so long ago and I only re-read it once, in the same time period. I was in my own phase of rejecting femininity then, so either I didn't notice it or I glossed over it.

(Having been a bossy, tomboyish little girl, the gear change into adolescence and young adulthood--and the gender conformity suddenly expected/demanded--was really hard for me. But my issues with femininity are with the social aspects of gender, the associated expectations and consequences. The black/white binaries of male/female and gay/straight and their associations with sexual acts and sometimes even positions, have always bothered me. They leave no shades of gray for people who fall between the two ends of the spectrum, like men who like getting pegged, and the women who peg them -- let alone bisexuals.)

I have never experienced the pain of gender dysphoria and can't imagine how awful it is. Yet I kind of instinctively feel that that's no excuse for misogynistic output. But then, many people inadvertently work out their personal shit in their writing. I mean, AR did it with Claudia in IWTV. Maybe Poppy didn't realize he was doing it while he was doing it (?). Has he ever been questioned about it or mentioned it, that you know of?

This is probably not what you intended, but now I'm curious to re-read Lost Souls now and find the misogyny I totally missed before.

I'm torn about AR-style over-writing. Being very prone to it myself, I consider it a flaw and curse. But sometimes it is quite lovely to read, if the writer has a good editor. And people have told me you're better off with too much written, rather than too little. But with my recurrent tendinitis, I long for my brain to produce succinct and terse writing. It would make writing and editing fic much less onerous for my wrists and forearms (and would probably increase my output). It would also probably reduce my ratio of WIPs to finished fics... though that's partially the ADD, too.

:-/

[glitteryv]

IIRC, Poppy transitioned back in 2010 or 2011. Prior to that, he had commented on suffering from gender dysphoria for years (at that time, he was still presenting as female).

I read all of his books up to 2001 (more or less). By 2000, he'd moved on from horror novels (which made A LOT of sense because I read Exquisite Corpse twice and I still can't tell you what that book was about.

To me, only the male characters in Lost Souls get to have full personalities as well as journeys. They're good and bad and have values and vices. Meanwhile, the only three female characters are something akin to 'pretend' women. One of them is dead (Nothing's mother) right around the time the story gets going. The other one is a teenager who dies at the hands of the vampires (she was more a vampire groupie?) and the third one is Ann (or maybe is Susanne?)--who is Steve's girlfriend. She becomes obsessed with Nothing's father/lover and ends up having sex with her own father.

If I'm not mistaken, I must have been at the end of 10th grade when I first read Lost Souls so there's no question that I'd totes squee about the themes in the novel. The idea of running away towards a more interesting life, not belonging anywhere, etc.

In Drawing Blood, his next book, one of the main male characters was best friends with a really cool, punk rock stripper Asian-American young woman. She's only there at the beginning and doesn't show up until, like, the very end to say good-bye.

I don't recall the exact source, but Poppy did go on record about how he didn't know how to write female characters and so he'd sort of let them stay in the background lest they ended up dragging the plot down. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but, yeah, basically he wrote crappy female characters. To me, it seems like he based the female characters in his (earlier) novels on his own experiences so that could be why they came off as female facsimiles?

To be honest, misogyny in fiction is not something I became aware of until years later. Mostly because of how some Fandom writers would interpret the female character from XYZ canon and totally make them boring or shrill or annoying so that the M/M couple could happen. I have no patience for it in fic, much less in pro-fic.

[verushka70]

I can't remember if I tried reading Drawing Blood or not, but I did attempt Exquisite Corpse. It's been a very long time, and my only recollections of that attempt are that I just couldn't get into it and failed after like 3 attempts, lol. Maybe I couldn't get into it because it was kind of incomprehensible?

I can see how, if you didn't feel female inside, you would have difficulty writing female characters.

All of this discussion makes me wonder if maybe my fanfic has been misogynistic and I just didn't know it. I typically don't write female characters; I'm kind of one-track-mind when it comes to m/m, whether DS or another fandom: I'm usually either going for the angst or the smexin' (or both, lol). So I just kind of ignore female characters, not out of any dislike but because they're rarely my focus in fannishness or fannish thinking.

I think (hope) that when I have written female characters, it wasn't in a misogynistic way... But I'm really not sure now. :-\
I guess I'll have to re-read whatever I've written that has included female characters, and see how it comes off. If I have written anything particularly misogynistic, it's been purely accidental and unintentional. Not that that's any excuse, of course...

[glitteryv]

Drawing Blood was about a hacker bisexual guy who meets and ends up falling for a gay cartoon artist with a dark past. Basically, when the cartoonist was a kid, his father killed his mother and his brother before killing himself.

They end up going back to the cartoonist's (now haunted) childhood home and battle the evil there.

It's kinda drawn out plot-wise but also readable. \o?

Anyhoo, Exquisite Corpse was a hot mess no matter which angle you'd approach it from. LOL.

I can see how, if you didn't feel female inside, you would have difficulty writing female characters.

Hmm, I'm not sure it was that exactly. After all, authors come up with all kinds of premises and characters without having to share their experiences. The more I think about it, the more I get the impression that Poppy simply wasn't interested in writing women but might've felt pressured to include them because of plot? #debatable

About your anxiety regarding potential misogyny in your fics, I think that awareness is crucial. As you said, if (IF) you find any, then (just like you said) it'd be accidental and unintentional. *hugs*