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rubberbutton's viewing of Young At Heart (HCL-related)
Jul. 19th, 2009 03:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
verushka70You know the "You okay for driving?" scene with the movie game where Joe describes the Sinatra movie Young At Heart to Billy? Well, rubberbutton watched it, summarized it, and made some comments. I haven't seen it, so I found them insightful. I also added a comment, but (as usual) I had too much to say so I added it here with circular links.
The rest of my comment:
I think it's like that for Billy and Joe. Joe has this Billy-idea in his head; but real!Billy just won't comply, dammit... real!Billy has this effect on Joe of perturbing Joe's behavior (to use physics terminology) just enough to make Joe piss Billy off. Joe can't help it, and Billy can't help it, so they're locked in this constant attract-and-repel cycle like alternating current. (I seem to be using a lot of scientific analogies. Hmmm.).
Also, they met as kids. Kids. Really, truly kids. Age 13 or so, wasn't it? Juvy, in the book. In the movie, I think Billy says, "I've known Joe since I was 13.... I love him more than anybody I've met since." That kind of relationship, something that starts so young, at such a pivotal developmental stage in life -- it's fierce. But they're 34. About to be 35 (in Billy's case). That's a lot of time that's passed. A lot of water under the bridge. And... 35 year old Billy can't want what 13 year old Billy wanted. He just can't. He is not the same Billy. Maybe Joe is. Should he be? It's debatable. Probably not. (Something about prolonged adolescence, failure to progress through adult developmental milestones, etc. should be said here... you get the idea.) But he is. And that's just... not compatible with now!Billy in HCL. It doesn't matter what Billy wants. Only that what he wants isn't the same as what Joe wants.
I can't hate either one of them, but I can see how sometimes Billy would love Joe... and sometimes he'd really hate him. I can see the same thing for Joe, how sometimes he really loves Billy, loves him so much that when Billy pulls away, he just wants to choke him. Of course, the hating... well, that's the other side of the coin of deep, I-really-need-you love, isn't it? May not be healthy -- may not be the enlightened kind of love that says, If that's what you need to be happy, then, even though it's going to make me so unhappy and lonely to let you go to LA or the UK or wherever and play your heart out and be a rock god, then go do it.
But I think that's the love Joe has for Billy, that You can't go, we've always been together, I'm not sure who I am without you around me, everything sucks without you, the color is out of the world when you're gone, I hate you for leaving, you shit, I'll get you back somehow, if I have to lie, cheat, steal, and kill you and me in the process, because we belong together, Billy, you know we do, you feel it too, I know you do, I know you won't say it, but you do, since we were thirteen, you fuck!
I think the love Billy has for Joe is old, loyal at heart, somewhat guilty, and somewhat Come on, okay, yes, I do love you, but get your shit together! It's a big world -- this isn't all there is! There's more! I've seen it! Leave this behind, grow up, stop fucking it up for me! If you cared about me you'd stop fucking it up! I want you to come with, but only if you stop fucking it up. Then we can enjoy it together! wtf!
Joe can cloak it any way he wants in punk ideology, and staying true to his roots -- and all of that works, and it is all true, and he isn't a bad person, by any means, not at all. And who doesn't love punk ideology? The whole fuck you, DIY, don't need your standards, don't need your status quo ideology -- we know, deep down, that conformity leads us off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings, unless we have some instinct for self-preservation or some instinct to think differently from the others. (That's the paradox, isn't it? When punk or "alternative" becomes the conformity -- when the nonconformism has to be conformed to -- what then? How not to conform? Then doesn't that make Billy the nonconformist, the free thinker, the one not going off the cliff? These are rhetorical... I'm thinking about the answers myself, and I'm not sure.)
But, I think at the bottom, Joe is afraid of the change. Afraid of taking a risk. It's safer to stick with what he knows, so he does, but it isn't working out, and he's bewildered as to why, bewildered and angry, and determined to do something about it, something desperate. Mainly he wants it to work, I think, because he wants everything that used to come with it -- most, Billy. This is his crucial mistake, because "welcome to the old days" is exactly why Billy left, so it's going to drive Billy away, not bring him closer.
rubberbutton watched it, summarized it, and made some comments. I haven't seen it, so I found them insightful. I also added a comment, but (as usual) I had too much to say so I added it here with circular links. The rest of my comment:
I think it's like that for Billy and Joe. Joe has this Billy-idea in his head; but real!Billy just won't comply, dammit... real!Billy has this effect on Joe of perturbing Joe's behavior (to use physics terminology) just enough to make Joe piss Billy off. Joe can't help it, and Billy can't help it, so they're locked in this constant attract-and-repel cycle like alternating current. (I seem to be using a lot of scientific analogies. Hmmm.).
Also, they met as kids. Kids. Really, truly kids. Age 13 or so, wasn't it? Juvy, in the book. In the movie, I think Billy says, "I've known Joe since I was 13.... I love him more than anybody I've met since." That kind of relationship, something that starts so young, at such a pivotal developmental stage in life -- it's fierce. But they're 34. About to be 35 (in Billy's case). That's a lot of time that's passed. A lot of water under the bridge. And... 35 year old Billy can't want what 13 year old Billy wanted. He just can't. He is not the same Billy. Maybe Joe is. Should he be? It's debatable. Probably not. (Something about prolonged adolescence, failure to progress through adult developmental milestones, etc. should be said here... you get the idea.) But he is. And that's just... not compatible with now!Billy in HCL. It doesn't matter what Billy wants. Only that what he wants isn't the same as what Joe wants.
I can't hate either one of them, but I can see how sometimes Billy would love Joe... and sometimes he'd really hate him. I can see the same thing for Joe, how sometimes he really loves Billy, loves him so much that when Billy pulls away, he just wants to choke him. Of course, the hating... well, that's the other side of the coin of deep, I-really-need-you love, isn't it? May not be healthy -- may not be the enlightened kind of love that says, If that's what you need to be happy, then, even though it's going to make me so unhappy and lonely to let you go to LA or the UK or wherever and play your heart out and be a rock god, then go do it.
But I think that's the love Joe has for Billy, that You can't go, we've always been together, I'm not sure who I am without you around me, everything sucks without you, the color is out of the world when you're gone, I hate you for leaving, you shit, I'll get you back somehow, if I have to lie, cheat, steal, and kill you and me in the process, because we belong together, Billy, you know we do, you feel it too, I know you do, I know you won't say it, but you do, since we were thirteen, you fuck!
I think the love Billy has for Joe is old, loyal at heart, somewhat guilty, and somewhat Come on, okay, yes, I do love you, but get your shit together! It's a big world -- this isn't all there is! There's more! I've seen it! Leave this behind, grow up, stop fucking it up for me! If you cared about me you'd stop fucking it up! I want you to come with, but only if you stop fucking it up. Then we can enjoy it together! wtf!
Joe can cloak it any way he wants in punk ideology, and staying true to his roots -- and all of that works, and it is all true, and he isn't a bad person, by any means, not at all. And who doesn't love punk ideology? The whole fuck you, DIY, don't need your standards, don't need your status quo ideology -- we know, deep down, that conformity leads us off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings, unless we have some instinct for self-preservation or some instinct to think differently from the others. (That's the paradox, isn't it? When punk or "alternative" becomes the conformity -- when the nonconformism has to be conformed to -- what then? How not to conform? Then doesn't that make Billy the nonconformist, the free thinker, the one not going off the cliff? These are rhetorical... I'm thinking about the answers myself, and I'm not sure.)
But, I think at the bottom, Joe is afraid of the change. Afraid of taking a risk. It's safer to stick with what he knows, so he does, but it isn't working out, and he's bewildered as to why, bewildered and angry, and determined to do something about it, something desperate. Mainly he wants it to work, I think, because he wants everything that used to come with it -- most, Billy. This is his crucial mistake, because "welcome to the old days" is exactly why Billy left, so it's going to drive Billy away, not bring him closer.
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no subject
Date: 2009-07-19 09:34 pm (UTC)Yeah. Joe wants Billy do be what he wants him to be. But even when Billy's performing up to Joe's standard, Joe knows that it's not real, that if something better comes along, Billy's gone. So he's got to push Billy, needle him, test him. Until it's an all out brawl.
Also, they met as kids. Kids. Really, truly kids. Age 13 or so, wasn't it?
Yep. And that's such a formative age. They know each other better than anyone because they helped make each other. And this puts Billy in a tight spot. Because how do you give up the only person who really knows you, even if you know they're bad for you, even if you're your worst you when you're around them? If that makes sense...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-19 10:32 pm (UTC)Exactly. That needling and testing -- making Billy prove his loyalty, knowing by now that Billy's done with sleeping in vans and band houses and he's an adult now -- it's almost like Joe is trying to prove to himself -- what? I don't know. It's almost like he's forcing Billy to be an asshole. Why? Does Joe need that martyr role? Is is something he learned, say, at home, where maybe he was the one who picked up the broken glasses, cleaned up the mess, after a drunk parent or something, made sure siblings were fed, etc.? He certainly has the "fixer" personality type, as far as HCL shows -- especially in that "let's get a few things out in the open" scene when they get out of the goat van and have it out on the side of the road.
I'm just speculating. I don't know. I don't have the original book handy... but as I recall, it doesn't give that much backstory, anyway, and neither does HCL. Which is so useful for all the fic. :-)
Yep. And that's such a formative age. They know each other better than anyone because they helped make each other. And this puts Billy in a tight spot. Because how do you give up the only person who really knows you, even if you know they're bad for you, even if you're your worst you when you're around them? If that makes sense...
Totally makes sense.