what ARE we? (is there an actual term for women who like slash?)

[verushka70]

So in the last 12 years when a ton of shit happened to me IRL (mostly repetitive strain injury-related, then a terrible combination of aging/sick parent related with job loss/layoff with returning to school/switching fields/careers), I fell of the Internet and out of fandom stuff for much of that time. I started to fall off around 2003-2004 due to severe bilateral tendinitis, and my absence was probably longest/participation was lowest from 2005 to around 2010 or 2011.



Much like being in a relationship for ten years had shielded me from the massive shift in online or "e-dating," my absence from fandom had not prepared me for the "shock of the new" and sites like Tumblr. Everyone was not on LJ anymore.

Via Tumblr, many fen self-identify who they are by means of short terms, some of which I hadn't heard or had heard, but didn't really understand. So by this self-identification I learned lots of new terminology -- for example, what cis gendered or non-binary or "ace" means. (I'm sure those terms were out there well before Tumblr, but I had not encountered them more than a couple of times prior to getting on Tumblr.) So I dutifully Googled a lot of stuff &/or asked other fen. It's all been really interesting and cool, even if it makes me feel so. very. old...

I am still not up on all the lingo of all these many ways of identifying, but... in reading the casual self-definitions of people on Tumblr, I've been thinking about what pulled me into fandom (lo, those 25 yrs ago! thank you Forever Knight, for bringing me to due South!) in the very first place.

It was slash that brought me to fandom -- the contemplation of slash, the mental continuation of attenuated, thinly disguised canonical semi-slash/pseudo-slash scenes, the (I'll admit it) fantasizing about "what really happened" between male characters in "missing scenes" because they couldn't be shown to be kissing or touching each other sexually on the actual TV show in 1992 (on Forever Knight) -- though their faces, inches apart, certainly utterly implied it was going to happen. That is what brought me into fandom.

I had not gone to a scifi/SFF con before that (unless Ren Faires count, which I don't think they do). Before the late 80s mainframe LISTSERVs, I had not known that any other woman on the planet was looking at the same two men on the same TV show I was watching, and thinking the exact same thing I was: they're gonna kiss; if they're not, they should be; these characters are totally loving and screwing each other in a parallel universe where this can actually be shown on TV. I had absolutely no idea there were tons of other women online engaged in the same thing, until I found them on the FORKNI-L email LISTSERV I joined in 1992 or 1993.

But what do we call ourselves? Do we have a name outside fandom, in the larger world, or in academia or gender studies? Do women who love slash have a term specific just to the love of slash? (Was there ever an archaic term for this, like from centuries ago? because that would be so cool... though I doubt that women of yore were able to be "out"/open about how they felt about seeing two dudes together, at least not if they found it super-sexy and squee-worthy.)

If there is a term for "women who enjoy contemplating/imagining two men being romantically &/or sexually involved with each other," is that terminology dependent on how we identify sexuality-wise? (given that there seem to be as many LGBTQ women who dig slash as there are vanilla het chicks, possibly more, that seems unlikely)

Is liking slash it's own thing, separate and apart from gender and sexuality? (Are there male slash fen? who aren't LGBTQ? IDEK -- I truly don't. Would this term -- if one other than "slash fan/fen" exists -- apply to those guys as well as us females, or would any such terms distinguish between the genders of the slash-admirers?

Maybe cis and non-binary and ace are terminology formed within that particular confluence of university studies and fandom (that's certainly where I was and what I was doing when I got into fandom).

But "slash" was a term before people were able to get slash stories through email lists or off the 'net. (I am familiar with the history of the term "slash" and origins in fandoms like original ST or MUNCLE.)

Yaoi (as a term) became popular in the late 90s, but that more describes the genre itself, than us women who love it. (And I can't say I personally relate much to yaoi for the simple fact that 99.9 times out of 100, I am not into boy/boy or tween/tween m/m... For me personally, at least one of the "m"s in "m/m" has to be an actual adult man -- YMMV -- Plus I'm not a manga/anime fan, unless you count a crush on Racer X when I was about 6 years old... I totally ditched Speed Racer for Racer X *g*!).

While such a term might be specifically about fans who like to contemplate m/m romance/sex, I would think it Could not be exclusively about watching/contemplating m/m couples being romantic &/or having sex -- because so much slashfic in so many different fandoms is PG rated with no sex at all, or primarily portrays the m/m relationship as deep partnership/friendship expanding into the realm of more than platonic love, yet less than explicitly sexual.

So... It's an interesting question, and I really don't know the answer. This isn't the first time I've pondered this in the last several months... it's just that I finally bothered to post the question.

I suppose I am fine with the term "slash fan" -- I just wondered if there was another term.

(I do object somewhat to the term "slasher" even though it is most expedient, but only because of the potentially violent connotations of "slashing" and "slashers.")

Comments

[mific]

I'm pretty crap at keeping up with all the politically correct terminology, so apologies in advance for failing at that.
I've never seen us called anything other than slash fans, myself.

Yeah, there seem to be at least three main groups of people I've encountered who are slash fans.
1. Het people who identify as female who find men hot and find two men together twice as hot.
2. Non het people who identify as female and who either are in the middle Kinsey-wise so still enjoy double fun with two guys, or who enjoy M/M slash more for the relationships or the romance. In my experience they often have wider tastes and like femslash as well, sometimes only femslash.
3. Gay or bi people who identify as male who are attracted to guys anyway. There aren't many in fandom but I know of a small number.

The only group who don't seem to enjoy slash are the straight guys! They may know about M/M slash from spouses or girlfriends, or from being in fandom for gen stories, and the guys who I've met like that are usually amused and teasing about it, maybe even aware their sex lives are improved by a wife or girlfriend being a slash fan, but they're not into it themselves. I think if a straight guy really enjoyed slash, that'd automatically mean he was at least a Kinsey 1, kind of by definition.

But of course it's way more complex than all that and there are umpteen scholarly articles about it all, many written by us. Maybe we like slashing our guys as we want them to be more like us, more female in their emotions and relationships. Maybe we like identifying with them because they're usually at least a little bit heroic or charming or funny. Whatever the intricacies, I still think the basic erotic attraction for het women is often as simple as two hot guys together, but women always want a whole lot of romance and foreplay (UST) with their sex, so we complicate it.

[verushka70]

Well, I won't lie, I was hoping there was some short, catchy term for us. "Slash fan" it is, then!

I think I like the most simplistic answer: we just like the idea (and visuals conjured) of a hot man with another hot man. Certainly it's the one that most applies to me (and, considering the sheer volume of PWP, many other women).

wrt the complexities, I have read some of those scholarly articles, but I confess I stopped and haven't bothered to read others since. Part of the reason I haven't bothered to keep up with the scholarly research on slash and slash fans is because, while I don't disagree that many slash fen fall into those two main groups of slashers, I never felt like any of it applied to me -- and a lot of other women, for that matter.

Firstly, neither of those conclusions (that female slash authors/readers slash men to make them more like women; or because they identify with the personality characteristics generally associated with male fictional movie/TV heroes) is particularly sex-positive. They're not necessarily sex-negative, either -- but for research that examines writing that is largely erotica (or was, before the influx of children and tweens onto the Internet and into fandom), the conclusions reached about the authors'/readers' motivations for slash are bizarrely devoid of eros.

Second, those conclusions have always seemed kind of of vaguely insulting to me; they basically describe the motivations for slash reading and writing as the emotional equivalents of penis envy.

wtf? Given that slash is, quite often, pure erotica (not all of it, but there is so much PWP on every fandom archive as well as AO3), it's a little odd to conclude that the main motivation for slash fen reading and writing slash is about envy of their masculine characteristics rather than an appreciation of them.

Neither of those camps consider a basic sex-positive possibility -- that maybe some women read/write men together sexually not merely because the idea of two hot men together is *hot*, but because they love men *for* their masculine characteristics, love having sex with men, &/or they've had sex with two men together (or want to, or have tried to).

IOW, maybe it's what you said, and the motivation for reading/writing slash is basically the same as that of men who like f/f erotica/porn -- IT'S HOT. It could actually be that simple!

[glitteryv]

IMO, being a slash or femslash or het or gen fan is not related to one's orientation and gender.

Yes, it is true that there's a definite correlation between people --usually female-identified-- and the fic they consume.

I do think that there are some things Fandom does better as far as truly exploring LGTBQ+ and genders other than cis WAY BETTER than books. Time and time again (especially last year as I got into Book fandom), I've seen profic authors trying (and mostly failing) to tackle anything from strories with ace kinksters to queer het featuring transgender protags.

There are authors who can work those narratives well, but they are way fewer than even I had expected.

As for the M/M romance fandom...The majority of it is white cishet women writing for white cishet women. There's a particularly nasty section who are not only misogynistic but also prickly towards actual!LGTBQ+. I mean, some of them have gone on record abt how queer people AREN'T welcome in M/M romance since those stories aren't for them. (You might want to check out my Book Meme Post going up later today...)

As for the terminology, I fucking LOVE it! To me, it's a reflection of how much representation actually matters. Sure it can be a bit eye-opening to learn the correct terms and retire those that are hurtful. Part of the reason is that this evolution in language pushes us to reflect on our own attitudes regarding other people and ourselves.

FTR, I only feel really old when I see a younger person in Tumblr trying to school everyone on why using "queer" as a sexual orientation label is "wrong". #Eyeroll Like, I kinda want to slap those people on the head for trying to tell me that my sexuality is not ~appropriate~ #Asif

[verushka70]

I agree that love of slash is not necessarily related to orientation and gender. I guess it's an "erotic orientation" designation.*g*

I imagine the general failure of cis-het profic authors to be able to do LGBTQ+ narratives lies in many not having any non-cis-hets in their immediate social circles and doing only the most cursory research; under those circumstances, such characters are likely to be stereotyped, cliched, fetishistic or tokenistic (much as when whites who don't actually know any POC try to write POC, or elites try to write about blue collar/working class people). Creativity (except maybe of marginalized people who have so much dominant culture shoved down their throats that they actually know quite a lot about it, if from the very specific perspective of marginalization) ends up being limited by the immediate social milieu. If you're restricted to your social milieu, fine; "write what you know," & all that. Just be aware you're probably going to either fuck up any attempt at portraying people outside your own milieu if you never step outside it...

Vanilla cis-het m/m romance slash fen declaring that LGBTQ+ fen aren't welcome in m/m romance fandom (!) exhibits such a baffling and breathtaking sense of entitlement, I can't even... yeah. These are likely the same people who object to cons like Wiscon working to create safe spaces for POC and LGBTQ+fans. But it boils down to fear, I think.

Human sexuality doesn’t get any more automatic/unthinking than vanilla cis-het. It’s the default. Because it’s the dominant sexuality (or was...*g*), they’ve never had to think much about other sexualities/orientations, and they’ve been schooled to think theirs is the morally superior “right” sexuality; all others are "deviant." So not only don’t they think about alternative sexualities or other orientations, they also don’t think they should have to. So their beliefs about LGBTQ+ people are stereotyped and arrogant.

tbh I think I encountered a lot of those homophobic vanilla cis-het female m/m romance authors/readers in early in dS fandom, though I did not know it at the time, as I was still pretty new to fandom myself. Looking back, the level of anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment among slash fen was fandom-dependent, too -- which makes sense. For example, Forever Knight fandom didn't have any notable anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment.

But FK's dominant slash relationship (LaCroix/Nicholas) was canonically overtly slashy and dubcon (vampire mentor/mentee relationship with a stalker/stalked, dom/sub dynamic derivative of Lestat/Louis in Interview With The Vampire). (Plus Janette, Nicholas’ vampire sister, had been the “bait” to lure Nick into the LaCroix/Janette relationship, so there were heavy canonical implications and flashbacks of m/f/m, too.) Such an inherently angsty, sometimes canonically cruel/mind-fucky m/m relationship could never have attracted "romance-oriented" homophobic vanilla cis-het slash fen. Everything about it was gloriously fucked up -- so if it pinged you, that kind of said something about you without you saying anything, lol.

dS fandom was another story. The show appears to be wholesome; it attracted “family viewing” fen (homophobic vanilla cis-het women among them; I mean, PG in Mountie uniform).

When I got into dS from FK fandom at the beginning of the S3 original broadcast, with the exception of one gay guy (Mitch Hudson), dS slash fen were all women. If there were any LGBTQ+ women, I never saw them identify as such, and vanilla cis-het women dominated the dueslash email list. Most were not into explicit m/m sex (and all were Fraser/Vecchio fen, though that's probably irrelevant, since I didn’t join until S3/Kowalski, and more Kowalski fen, including a growing group of LGBTQ+ Kowalski fen joined after me, or jointed the split-off email list, Asylum). There were few outliers (Gilda Lily *gulp*). In general, it was a lot of pining/hand-holding/kissing/cuddling (Fraser/Vecchio) and the sex was not too graphic. Everyone on these lists was an adult. This was pre-LJ, pre-blog; the Internet was just barely beginning to commercialize (with CompuServ, then with AOL).

What I realized from show and slash discussions was many of the dS vanilla cis-het m/m romance authors/readers – especially those who were the most exclusionary – were basically sex-avoidant/sex-averse. My strong impression from both what was discussed and what was not discussed, was this was not a sex-positive crowd, for the most part. They didn’t choose romance -- they defaulted to romance. There is a difference.

IMO most unevolved vanilla cis-het women who do not actually write or read explicit m/m sex (and many who do, no doubt, but fewer in proportion) have a host of misconceptions and misperceptions about LGBTQ+ people (e.g., of course bisexuals must all be total sluts incapable of monogamy -- they’re bisexual, so what else could they be? *smh* Het women said this.) Add on to those negative misconceptions the moral superiority and their sex-avoidant cis-het hangups about/disgust with real-world sex and the (fairly vanilla) things het men often want (blowjobs, oral sex) -- you know, the sweating, the bodily fluids, the messiness -- and what you get are Harlequin romance readers. These are not Laurell K. Hamilton smut fans.

All of that firmly in place, coupled with a moral superiority/arrogance that theirs is the “right” sexuality and all others are wrong, such vanilla cis-het women can only be threatened by alternative sexualities. Because they presume that people lacking the social norms (and imposed patriarchal boundaries) of het male/female relationship are just sexing it up all the time. (These are the people who worry that if gay marriage is legal, people will marry animals because there will be "nothing to stop them.")

They are just so, so freaked out by sexy people of indeterminate or blurry gender/orientation having sexy sex in all kinds of sexy ways. It forces them to confront shit they’ve never in their entire lives had to think about because of their default settings.

From that I extrapolate that sex-avoidant or sex-averse/-negative cis-het women writing m/m romance desperately fear that their soft-focus rainbows and unicorns hand-holding m/m romance fandom is going to be defiled by the hypersexual maneating non-vanilla sluts (*raises hand*) and LGBTQ+ people wandering into “their” fandom. We'll “ruin” “their” safe little m/m romance fandom. We might further ruin it eventually with actual graphic sex (these are two men together, right? lol) and sweaty details.

Ergo, all the LGBTQ+ and non-vanilla people are unwelcome. Even if their sandbox is a m/m sandbox. It’s totally nuts, but there you are.

Representation does matter. It's extremely validating to know you're not alone and others are out there like oneself -- especially if you're stuck in an area where you're hugely outnumbered by the dominant culture.

I kind of have a love/hate relationship with Tumblr. The age skew on there leads to some really insufferable proselytizing of various silliness in that intolerant, holier-than-thou vein best mined by impassioned and idealistic youth. ;) (Yet when I look back on my 20-nothing self, I realize how insufferable I must have been, too -- how my family put up with me, I do not know, lol!)

OTOH the Tumblr gif sharing is amazing and often hysterical.